An email to MagicJack

DRAFT

Seeing as I can’t directly comment under: Selected Longrunning Magicjack Numbers - Interesting how I don’t have “Carrier Reporter” role at all… Even though this is a slightly different email at PLAIN sight I still regularly report. I’ve posted under so many relevant threads sharing the emails I’ve written etc lol.

Of course, every time I write an email, before I send it off I share it and gather feedback. [I usually write a beginning email, use AI First to gather a rating + potential improvements / rewordings etc before publishing here].

@OfclyGoodenough @scamterminator2021 @Tim_Burr @spicybrown @MajorLeeAwesome @Jhawk @Tillianne I invite a reply from you all PARTICULARLY (as well as everyone else of course).

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That looks fantastic!!!

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Nicely written, mate! If I may add one point, it would be: “Too often irreputable VOIP carriers tend to claim unawareness of illicit activities taking place on their networks. In their opinion, it is somehow not an issue that they have to address, as they are not the party initiating fraudulent and harassing robocalls. Such logic is deeply flawed, and you MUST take action, as you have all the tools, technological know-how and professional aptitude to handle such matters. No futher inaction will be tolerated, and the society must have the right to shed light on such misconduct driven by pure avarice and frivolous ineptitude”

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I approve of the email.

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I usually don’t mention anything about being a scambaiter because carriers have a prejudice against scambaiters since the scammer blaster incident. I know we aren’t all the same but carriers have that association and they may take the report as some form of vigilantism versus just a concerned person reporting fraud.

It’s important to realize that the employee reading these emails may not have any legal authority or know how to act with something like this whereas if they are sent emails with numbers that are using their network for malicious activity then they can take action to verify the claim and follow their procedures for handling such reports.

I also don’t mention legal action because it just doesn’t come off well. The best way imho is to be calm, factual and give the representative reading your email something that they can take action on. The rep can terminate numbers for fraud but they may not be able to enforce or even suggest wide sweeping policy changes like better KYC enforcement.

Over April, the DeMurrage group and a few other teams have reported a total of 83 numbers to Magicjack. Out of these, only 10 have lasted long enough to get posted on our carrier reporting thread. Magicjack is a responsible carrier and does take action against abuse on their network. I would not call them complacent, non-responsive or irresponsible.

PS: These are my own opinions and do not represent the opinions of DeMurrage or the scammer.info team.

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I recently reported a Telnyx number, and I sent them a short audio recording of the scammer outing herself. I was in character, and kept the call short. That’s all they needed.

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Tweaked.

Yeah bro, of course. I respect it fully. I get where your coming from and always welcome discussion! Henceforth, I don’t just send things off - I wait first. I’ll forever appreciate yours & everyone else’s time taken for inputs. :slight_smile:





RE TWEAK - DRAFT 2:

Let me know the thoughts before I whack the send button!


@Tillianne
@OfclyGoodenough

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Very nice!

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The revisions are appreciated, and I approve of the email.

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Of course, always a thanks like I’d said for the responses and feedback/criticism I get. It always gives me new ways to think of things that I may not have done so instead in the first place and helps me better myself, I understand I have my own flaws of course; I’m not perfect.

Took me a little longer to re-word/re-format the email but we got there in the end! LOL.

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You previously wrote some brilliant emails to Peerless Network, too. They responded a couple of times but then chose to “ghost” you. In my experience, IP Horizon, Peerless, Onvoy and Commio are by far the worst violators. They appear very complacent with illegal robocalls, based on what I have experienced. The good ones are Bandwidth, Verizon, and occasionally Twilio. The latter needs a lot of “push” to respond, though.

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What has been your experience with reporting scams and spam to Peerless Network, Telnyx, Commio, IP Horizon and Inteliquent/Onvoy? I know that Onvoy is very much disliked by this community, and I think there are some valid reasons for it.

I personally don’t have many good things to say about the rest of telcos mentioned above, but YMMV.

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Peerless, Sinch (Onvoy/Intelliquent) are very inconsistent and may terminate some numbers but most of the time the reports are either ignored or the numbers are ditched by the scammers once they get posted on here.

I have had decent experience with IP Horizon, they may take a few emails and they’ll ask for information like time of call, called number, calling number and a recording always helps so it’s important to keep calling logs (I grab mine off the PBX I use).

Telnyx again seems to be inconsistent but in my experience the best way to get their attention is via their abuse form https://telnyx.com/report-abuse

Twilio used to have a bad name but they have really upped their game. The issue with Bandwidth is that they’re a big reseller and they put the responsibility of action in the resellers, however they will forwards any reports sent to [email protected] to the respective reseller and some resellers like Google take action while others will not. Being a reseller is not an excuse because other resellers are known to first take action on their side and then await the investigation from their customer (the reseller who sold the number to the scammer).

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Thank you for sharing. I agree that many of these so-called “wholesale VOIP carriers” like Onvoy, Peerless Network and Telnyx tend to apply this weird logic of not being responsible for investigating robocalls made by their clients and holding them accountable. They’d typically say something along the lines of: “We are merely a wholesale provider that sells/leases numbers to another carrier (often, the latter is located in India, Pakistan or the Philippines). We don’t know the identity of the parties originating calls to your number. We communicated the issue to the reseller”. After that, they typically cease all communication, which is infuriating. It is a very flawed logic to state that it is somehow not their problem, because they didn’t make the calls. This is where the FCC, FTC, FBI and others must step in aggressively. They should force these infamous resellers to end all relationships with carriers that facilitate and enable illegal robocalls.

On a more global scale, the American taxpayers should ask the Federal Government:

  1. Why are foreigners located in the regions crawling with scams, such as India, the Phillipines or Pakistan even allowed to gain access to US telecom network so freely? Isn’t such extreme leniency essentially a national security threat? Wouldn’t it be logical to mandate strict KYC policies for all entities, especially for foreign ones.

  2. Why aren’t we holding the governments of the aforementioned nations accountable for turning a blind eye to illicit conduct? We all know that India and Pakistan alone account for over 60-70% of all scam calls. The US, NATO and their partners have multiple mechanisms to force accountability upon these predatorial regimes.

  3. Why don’t we criminally charge the leadership of US VOIP providers for negligence and complacency with fraudulent calls? All these occasional “gazillion dollar fines” and cease and desist notices we have been seeing are clearly not working.

  4. Since scam calls equate to at least $50+ bn a year, wouldn’t it be logical and prudent to place them in a similar category as terrorist activities? I’d advocate for the use of national intelligence, military and diplomacy to address the issue. It doesn’t matter that it might upset India. They don’t seem to care about the issue, since it doesn’t impact them. So, we should force them to take appropriate action.

Sorry for such a lengthy post, but it is beyond frustrating that in 2024 AD we can send a human to the moon or annihilate terrorist leaders with sophisticated drones etc., and yet we somehow cannot hold nasty fraudsters hiding in some dirty little call centers accountable.

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I’m sorry but this isn’t some major conspiracy against the US or scambaiters.

  • Carriers like Ringcentral have a legit presence in India and other countries to provide numbers and other VoIP services for international clients. The modern world would not function without such amenities.
  • Telecoms do enforce KYC and some like Ringcentral require a US business, address and billing address to be able to signup for an account (a team I work with was a Ringcentral customer). The KYC is not perfect and that is something that needs to be worked on and can have a bigger effect on scammers and the reseller underground than trying to convince foreign police to take action.
  • Telecoms are not terrorists, India is the world’s 5th largest economy and US India trade is over 200 billion $ (India-US Trade: India-us Trade To Top $200bn | Delhi News - Times of India). Expecting any goverment to endanger that by otting pressure because of the scam industry and a few bad telecoms is unrealistic.
  • The most effective way for us as individuals to make a dent is to report the numbers we come across to carriers in a calm, logical and actionable way. See the thread linked in the OP of this topic for examples of templates that can be used.
  • The DeMurrage group ka working on a project to make reporting to telecoms easier since sometimes getting the information necessary to report is tricky. We have a database of email templates and reporting emails or form links for all major telecoms that will be made public soon. So keep an eye on this forum for that.

TlDr: legal threats, abusive emails and recommendations for action on other countries does not help and is not something we can make a significant effect on. What we can do to combat the scams is verify numbers, report them in a concise manner with evidence and keep pressure on scammers by keeping them always second guessing if the caller is a baiter or a real victim.

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I have to respectfully disagree with you on multiple accounts. It is fairly obvious that US telecom industry has become extremely dysfunctional due to lack of government oversight, extreme deregulation and presence of special interest groups. There is also one underlying theme here - lack of accountability and lack of enforcement.

This issue of illegal robocalls is very unique to the North American and - to some extent - UK market. I have traveled extensively and lived in several countries overseas. Robocalls and scam calls are a rather minor issue there. In fact, in nations like Sweden, Germany and few others they barely even exist. Yes, these are less populous nations than the US, but EU as a whole is far from tiny. I do know that their telecom industry is a lot more regulated. There are great articles about it on Commsrisk.

I do not think that proposing a strong and stern political solution is unrealistic. We can write mass petitions, vote for the right candidates and find ways to spread the message by collaborating with journalists, regulators and other groups. I can tell you that I personally was able to shut down quite a few scammers by relentlessly emailing a multitude of State, local, Federal regulators as well as some individuals within the ITG and Anti-Robocall Taskforce. Naturally, I was always respectful and professional in my communication with them. Yes, I’m just a regular person and I’m often ignored by these individuals. However, I am not giving up, and I have seen telecom held accountable.

By the way, I have never said that telecoms are equated to terrorists. There are reputable telcos that take immediate action on reports. I have compared foreign (and domestic) scammers to terrorists. I am not taking my words back. Their harassing and illegal behaviors cause immense hardships, pain and suffering on some of the most vulnerable people - the elderly, disabled and impoverished persons. I have no compassion for these criminals.

While I am not familiar with your group and do not have anything critical to say about it, I think you may overestimate the ethical and law-abiding nature of several foreign enterprises calling the US public. Same is true of some VOIP telecom. I think there is a trend with some of them of turning a blind eye to illegal activities due to several factors. After all, they do make money off selling and leasing telephone numbers to their foreign resellers, some of which are not reputable. We have been seeing a significant increase in warning notices sent to VOIP carriers by the FTC and FCC, and I think there are valid reasons for it.

I don’t think I would be exaggerating by saying that MOST American people have no interest in Indians, Pakistanis or other foreign persons calling them. There is simply no logical need for it, in most cases. I definitely would not be upset if there was a way to make my phone number completely inaccessible to all foreign callers. Unfortunately, it is impossible, as they use local numbers and spoof. Yes, I am aware that there are domestic scammers too, but they are easier to catch. In fact, we should be learning from nations like Ireland (I applaud them for banning foreign callers from using Irish numbers!)

https://commsrisk.com/regulator-rebuffs-twilio-suggestion-that-foreign-teleworkers-might-use-irish-phone-numbers/

Furthermore, we cannot underestimate the power of litigation and societal pressure on telecom. I can tell you that via litigation, legal notices and demands as well as emails to executive leadership, I personally was able to place universal block on my cell phone number with some providers that are frequently utilized by foreign telemarketers and scammers. Yes, I realize that it might prevent legitimate callers from reaching me, but it is okay with me. I communicate a lot via electronic means, such as IMs and emails, and I am fine with accepting this minor risk. On the positive side, I have seen a tremendous reduction in the number of robocalls placed to my telephone number. In my opinion, it is a rather small number of telcos that are frequently used by scammers and spammers. I have also seen it when telcos eventually took action against scammers after multiple people put pressure on them. I think we cannot underestimate the power of organized collective efforts, as it comes to holding telecom and illegal telemarketers accountable (within legal means).

There is currently a wonderful lawsuit in Federal court titled Mey vs. All Access Telecom. Should Diane Mey win this lawsuit, it would create a powerful precedent. It would imply that we - regular citizens - would be able to sue telecoms turning a blind eye to robocalls and scams. And it would be absolutely epic! It would be a step in the right direction of protecting regular people from annoying and obnoxious scammers.

@Jhawk @MajorLeeAwesome - I apologize in advance for including you in this post, but I think you guys share some of the same experiences that I shared here. It’s ridiculous that we let a few nasty non-compliant greedy telcos profiting off Indian and Pakistani scammers hold the entire country hostage!

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